Robin Hood's Grave (Holbeck): Difference between revisions

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__NOTOC__{{PnItemTop|Lat=53.239236|Lon=-1.192017|AdmDiv=Nottinghamshire|Vicinity=In Holbeck; ''c.'' 25 m NE of Blue Barn Farm and ''c.'' 20  m E of Blue Barn Lodge|Type=Natural feature|Interest=Robin Hood name|Status=Defunct|Demonym=|Riding=|GreaterLondon=|Year=1839|Aka=Robins Greave; Gorse Covert; Gorse Copse|Century=|Cluster1=|Cluster2=|Cluster3=|Image=robin-hoods-grave-holbeck-google-earth-street-view.jpg|Postcards=|ExtraCat1=Places named Robin Hood's Grave|ExtraCat2=|ExtraCat3=|ExtraCat4=|ExtraCat5=|ExtraLink1=|ExtraLink2=|ExtraLink3=|ExtraLink4=|ExtraLink5=|ExtraLinkName1=|ExtraLinkName2=|ExtraLinkName3=|ExtraLinkName4=|ExtraLinkName5=|GeopointPrefix=|GeopointSuffix=|StatusSuffix=|DatePrefix=|DateSuffix=}}
__NOTOC__{{PlaceNamesItemTop|Lat=53.239236|Lon=-1.192017|AdministrativeDivision=Nottinghamshire|Vicinity=In Holbeck; ''c.'' 25 m NE of Blue Barn Farm and ''c.'' 20  m E of Blue Barn Lodge|Type=Natural feature|Interest=Robin Hood name|Status=Defunct|Demonym=|Riding=|GreaterLondon=|Year=1839|Aka=Robins Greave; Gorse Covert; Gorse Copse|Century=|Cluster1=|Cluster2=|Cluster3=|Image=robin-hoods-grave-holbeck-google-earth-street-view.jpg|Postcards=|ExtraCat1=Places named Robin Hood's Grave|ExtraCat2=|ExtraCat3=|ExtraCat4=|ExtraCat5=|ExtraLink1=|ExtraLink2=|ExtraLink3=|ExtraLink4=|ExtraLink5=|ExtraLinkName1=|ExtraLinkName2=|ExtraLinkName3=|ExtraLinkName4=|ExtraLinkName5=|GeopointPrefix=|GeopointSuffix=|StatusSuffix=|DatePrefix=|DateSuffix=}}
{{#display_map:{{#var:Coords}}~Robin's Greave aka Robin Hood's Grave|width=34%|service=leaflet|enablefullscreen=yes}}<div class="pnMapLegend">Robin's Greave aka Robin Hood's Grave.</div>
{{#display_map:{{#var:Coords}}~Robin's Greave aka Robin Hood's Grave|width=34%|enablefullscreen=yes}}<div class="pnMapLegend">Robin's Greave aka Robin Hood's Grave.</div>
{{#display_map:53.251274,-1.192124~Dobson and Taylor;53.25135628916849,-1.1847960948944092~Historical Gazetteer of English Place-Names; 53.239236,-1.192017~Robin's Greave aka Robin Hood's Grave|type=satellite|zoom=14|width=34%|service=leaflet|enablefullscreen=yes}}<div class="pnMapLegend">Top: Two  
{{#display_map:53.251274,-1.192124~Dobson and Taylor;53.25135628916849,-1.1847960948944092~Historical Gazetteer of English Place-Names; 53.239236,-1.192017~Robin's Greave aka Robin Hood's Grave|type=satellite|zoom=14|width=34%|enablefullscreen=yes}}<div class="pnMapLegend">Top: Two  
suggested locations for Robin Hood's Grave; that of Dobson & Taylor to the left; that of the [http://placenames.org.uk/index.php/browse/mads/epns-deep-17-d-mappedname-000695 Historical Gazetteer of England's Place-Names] to the right. Below: the actual location of Robin's Greave aka Robin Hood's Grave.</div>
suggested locations for Robin Hood's Grave; that of Dobson & Taylor to the left; that of the [http://placenames.org.uk/index.php/browse/mads/epns-deep-17-d-mappedname-000695 Historical Gazetteer of England's Place-Names] to the right. Below: the actual location of Robin's Greave aka Robin Hood's Grave.</div>
[[File:robin-hoods-grave-holbeck-google-earth-street-view.jpg|thumb|right|500px|Looking towards Robin's Greave aka Robin Hoods' Grave / Google Earth Street View.]]<div class="no-img">
[[File:robin-hoods-grave-holbeck-google-earth-street-view.jpg|thumb|right|500px|Looking towards Robin's Greave aka Robin Hoods' Grave / Google Earth Street View.]]<div class="no-img">
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Robin Hood's Grave, a locality near Holbeck (Nottinghamshire), whose nature and precise location have long been minor mysteries, is in fact a gorse copse ''c.'' 25 meters northeast of Blue Barn Farm and ''c.'' 20  meters east of Blue Barn Lodge, approximately at the centre of a triangle formed by Holbeck, Cuckney and Langwith.  
Robin Hood's Grave, a locality near Holbeck (Nottinghamshire), whose nature and precise location have long been minor mysteries, is in fact a gorse copse ''c.'' 25 meters northeast of Blue Barn Farm and ''c.'' 20  meters east of Blue Barn Lodge, approximately at the centre of a triangle formed by Holbeck, Cuckney and Langwith.  


Gover, Mawer and Stenton in the English Place-Name Society's volume on Nottinghamshire list this place-name under Holbeck parish, referring to a ''c.'' 1840 tithe award and an unspecified and undated 6" O.S. map.<ref>{{:Gover, John Eric Bruce 1940a}}, p. 84, and see pp. xxxiii, 294.</ref> They cite the name given in the tithe award as "Robins Grave", that in the 6" O.S.  
Gover, Mawer and Stenton in the English Place-Name Society's volume on Nottinghamshire list this place-name under Holbeck parish, referring to a ''c.'' 1840 tithe award and an unspecified and undated 6" O.S. map.<ref>{{:Gover, John Eric Bruce 1940a}}, p. 84, and see pp. xxxiii, 294.</ref> They cite the name given in the tithe award as 'Robins Grave', that in the 6" O.S.  
map as "Robin Hood's Grave". According to Dobson & Taylor, Robin Hood's Grave was <span style='display:inline-block'>"[a]pparently</span> a cave".<ref>{{:Dobson, Richard Barrie 1976a}}, p. 302, ''s.n.'' 'Robin Hood's Grave'.</ref> It is not clear why they thought so, but as Nottinghamshire is a county with many caves, perhaps this was a mere guess. Frank E. Earp, the author of a recent book on Nottinghamshire lore, states categorically that "this site is in fact a cave" and it "does not feature on any other map of the county" than the tithe map.<ref>{{:Earp, Frank E 2014a-ebook}}, pp. 142-45; online at: [https://books.google.dk/books?id=NCFxAwAAQBAJ&lpg=PT143&dq=robin+hood%27s+grave+holbeck+frank+earp&source=bl&ots=9pz6SaYC8v&sig=gW7ZwRAi5Fj_uBTOI2FMyGRJtEU&hl=en&sa=X&output=reader&pg=GBS.PT141.w.2.0.4 Google Books]</ref> He cites no source, but he seems to have nearly all his information on Robin Hood place-names from Dobson & Taylor. I have not been able to locate the map referred to by Gover, Mawer and Stenton among the myriad maps online at the [http://maps.nls.uk/os/ National Library of Scotland's website], but not all O.S. maps are (yet) online there.
map as 'Robin Hood's Grave'. According to Dobson & Taylor, Robin Hood's Grave was <span style='display:inline-block'>'[a]pparently</span> a cave'.<ref>{{:Dobson, Richard Barrie 1976a}}, p. 302, ''s.n.'' 'Robin Hood's Grave'.</ref> It is not clear why they thought so, but as Nottinghamshire is a county with many caves, perhaps this was a mere guess. Frank E. Earp, the author of a recent book on Nottinghamshire lore, states categorically that 'this site is in fact a cave' and it 'does not feature on any other map of the county' than the tithe map.<ref>{{:Earp, Frank E 2014a-ebook}}, pp. 142-45; online at: [https://books.google.dk/books?id=NCFxAwAAQBAJ&lpg=PT143&dq=robin+hood%27s+grave+holbeck+frank+earp&source=bl&ots=9pz6SaYC8v&sig=gW7ZwRAi5Fj_uBTOI2FMyGRJtEU&hl=en&sa=X&output=reader&pg=GBS.PT141.w.2.0.4 Google Books]</ref> He cites no source, but he seems to have nearly all his basic information on Robin Hood place-names from Dobson & Taylor. I have not been able to locate the map referred to by Gover, Mawer and Stenton among the myriad maps online at the [http://maps.nls.uk/os/ National Library of Scotland's website], but not all O.S. maps are (yet) online there.


Dobson & Taylor tentatively suggest a location "near Sheet 112 SK:540730?", which translates to a square, 100 by 100 m, whose SW corner is at 53.251274,-1.192124.<ref>Using [http://www.movable-type.co.uk/scripts/latlong-os-gridref.html Movable Type Scripts: Convert between Latitude/Longitude & OS National Grid References].</ref> This is indicated top left on the Google satellite map below, while the pointer top right indicates an alternative location suggested at the Historical Gazetteer of England's Place-Names.<ref>[http://placenames.org.uk/index.php/browse/mads/epns-deep-17-d-mappedname-000695 The Historical Gazetteer of England's Place-Names: Robin Hood's Grave].</ref> At neither location is there any suggestion of the presence of a cave. The Notts Guided Walking Programme for 2010 offered a walk "to Holbeck, back via Greaves Wood to look for Robin Hood's grave. The Nottinghamshire place-name book says 'It's somewhere here'!"<ref>[http://nottsguidedwalks.co.uk/print-versions/1008Aug.htm Notts Guided Walking Programme for 2016].</ref> Clearly people with intimate knowledge of the area do not know where or what the grave is.
Dobson & Taylor tentatively suggest a location 'near Sheet 112 SK:540730?', which translates to a square, 100 by 100 m, whose SW corner is at 53.251274,-1.192124.<ref>Using [http://www.movable-type.co.uk/scripts/latlong-os-gridref.html Movable Type Scripts: Convert between Latitude/Longitude & OS National Grid References].</ref> This is indicated top left on one of the interactive maps below, while the pointer top right on the same map indicates an alternative location suggested at the Historical Gazetteer of England's Place-Names.<ref>[http://placenames.org.uk/index.php/browse/mads/epns-deep-17-d-mappedname-000695 The Historical Gazetteer of England's Place-Names: Robin Hood's Grave].</ref> At neither location is there any suggestion of the presence of a cave. The Notts Guided Walking Programme for 2010 offered a walk "to Holbeck, back via Greaves Wood to look for Robin Hood's grave. The Nottinghamshire place-name book says 'It's somewhere here'!".<ref>[http://nottsguidedwalks.co.uk/print-versions/1008Aug.htm Notts Guided Walking Programme for 2016].</ref> Evidently people with local knowledge no longer know where or what the grave is.


The unspecified tithe award of ''c.'' 1840 cited by the three place-name researchers turns out to be for Cuckney, carrying the dates 1839 and 1841 and also covering Holbeck and Bonbusk. The place-name listed there is 'Robins Greave',<ref>[https://www.thegenealogist.com/image_viewer/?imagego=yVaqkz_Qlg-fGyJpQu891TJ9ziRQSuSdqWR3Luzp68332Ri8w2N5kReiGJeHC49189lOvhzBx35JJdUrV6fKMswC6UnPeZhX8KeQ57hbaR12kgQgfGqR5Mq3n6UtDDaE&r%5B1%5D=26&r%5B2%5D=037&r%5B3%5D=375 Piece 26, sub-piece 037, image 375 (schedule), plot No. 885] (subscription required). [https://www.thegenealogist.com/image_viewer/?imagego=5QIH2T2WPVLBR_rz7g5lyEcKvVpX0gSQ9AVPicWgEFeXYNnRYkKtyNu5klLz0VueaqkVfw0FSDMMUs0Of7_f998ITY7MtewB9FPTC0onZTeR_SOqsfsTFa7Y41syC2id&o=%5B%5B%22zc%22%2C14697%2C12698%5D%2C%5B%22dg%22%2C%5B%5B14697%2C12698%5D%5D%2C%22Landowner%3A+The+Earl+Bathurst%3Cbr%3EOccupier%3A+The+Earl+Bathurst%22%5D%5D&id=64940306 The Genealogist Piece: 26, sub-piece 37, sub-image 001 (tithe map), plot No. 885] (subscription required).</ref> not grave. The writing is quite clear. At the location indicated on the tithe map, the O.S. maps listed below have a "Gorse Covert" or "Gorse Copse", which can also be seen at the position indicated near the bottom of the Google satellite map below. Thus Robin became Robin Hood and the greave (i.e. thicket or copse) became a grave.<ref>[http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/81124?rskey=NBpeeJ&result=1&isAdvanced=false#eid ''OED'', ''s.n.'' greave, ''n.<sup>1</sup>, 2.]</ref>
The unspecified tithe award of ''c.'' 1840 cited by the three place-name researchers turns out to be for Cuckney, carrying the dates 1839 and 1841 and also covering Holbeck and Bonbusk. The place-name listed there is 'Robins Greave',<ref>[https://www.thegenealogist.com/image_viewer/?imagego=yVaqkz_Qlg-fGyJpQu891TJ9ziRQSuSdqWR3Luzp68332Ri8w2N5kReiGJeHC49189lOvhzBx35JJdUrV6fKMswC6UnPeZhX8KeQ57hbaR12kgQgfGqR5Mq3n6UtDDaE&r%5B1%5D=26&r%5B2%5D=037&r%5B3%5D=375 Piece 26, sub-piece 037, Image 375 (schedule), plot No. 885] (£). [https://www.thegenealogist.com/image_viewer/?imagego=5QIH2T2WPVLBR_rz7g5lyEcKvVpX0gSQ9AVPicWgEFeXYNnRYkKtyNu5klLz0VueaqkVfw0FSDMMUs0Of7_f998ITY7MtewB9FPTC0onZTeR_SOqsfsTFa7Y41syC2id&o=%5B%5B%22zc%22%2C14697%2C12698%5D%2C%5B%22dg%22%2C%5B%5B14697%2C12698%5D%5D%2C%22Landowner%3A+The+Earl+Bathurst%3Cbr%3EOccupier%3A+The+Earl+Bathurst%22%5D%5D&id=64940306 The Genealogist Piece: 26, sub-piece 37, Sub-Image 001 (tithe map), plot No. 885] (£).</ref> not grave. The writing is quite clear. At the location indicated on the tithe map, the O.S. maps listed below have a "Gorse Covert" or "Gorse Copse", which can also be seen at the position indicated near the bottom of the Google satellite map below. Thus Robin became Robin Hood and the greave, i.e. thicket or copse, became a grave.<ref>[http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/81124?rskey=NBpeeJ&result=1&isAdvanced=false#eid ''OED'', ''s.n.'' greave, ''n.<sup>1</sup>, 2.]</ref>
<!--<div class="century">{{#ask:[[Category:Robin Hood's Grave (Holbeck, Nottinghamshire)]]|format=embedded|embedformat=h3|columns=1|limit=1000|sort=Utitle}}-->
<!--<div class="century">{{#ask:[[Category:Robin Hood's Grave (Holbeck, Nottinghamshire)]]|format=embedded|embedformat=h3|columns=1|limit=1000|sort=Utitle}}-->
== Gazetteers ==
== Gazetteers ==
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== MS sources ==
== MS sources ==
* [https://www.thegenealogist.com/image_viewer/?imagego=yVaqkz_Qlg-fGyJpQu891TJ9ziRQSuSdqWR3Luzp68332Ri8w2N5kReiGJeHC49189lOvhzBx35JJdUrV6fKMswC6UnPeZhX8KeQ57hbaR12kgQgfGqR5Mq3n6UtDDaE&r%5B1%5D=26&r%5B2%5D=037&r%5B3%5D=375 The Genealogist Piece 26, sub-piece 037, image 375 (schedule), plot No. 885] (subscription required)
* [https://www.thegenealogist.com/image_viewer/?imagego=yVaqkz_Qlg-fGyJpQu891TJ9ziRQSuSdqWR3Luzp68332Ri8w2N5kReiGJeHC49189lOvhzBx35JJdUrV6fKMswC6UnPeZhX8KeQ57hbaR12kgQgfGqR5Mq3n6UtDDaE&r%5B1%5D=26&r%5B2%5D=037&r%5B3%5D=375 The Genealogist Piece 26, sub-piece 037, Image 375 (schedule), plot No. 885] (£)
* [https://www.thegenealogist.com/image_viewer/?imagego=5QIH2T2WPVLBR_rz7g5lyEcKvVpX0gSQ9AVPicWgEFeXYNnRYkKtyNu5klLz0VueaqkVfw0FSDMMUs0Of7_f998ITY7MtewB9FPTC0onZTeR_SOqsfsTFa7Y41syC2id&o=%5B%5B%22zc%22%2C14697%2C12698%5D%2C%5B%22dg%22%2C%5B%5B14697%2C12698%5D%5D%2C%22Landowner%3A+The+Earl+Bathurst%3Cbr%3EOccupier%3A+The+Earl+Bathurst%22%5D%5D&id=64940306 The Genealogist Piece: 26, sub-piece 37, sub-image 001 (tithe map), plot No. 885] (subscription required).
* [https://www.thegenealogist.com/image_viewer/?imagego=5QIH2T2WPVLBR_rz7g5lyEcKvVpX0gSQ9AVPicWgEFeXYNnRYkKtyNu5klLz0VueaqkVfw0FSDMMUs0Of7_f998ITY7MtewB9FPTC0onZTeR_SOqsfsTFa7Y41syC2id&o=%5B%5B%22zc%22%2C14697%2C12698%5D%2C%5B%22dg%22%2C%5B%5B14697%2C12698%5D%5D%2C%22Landowner%3A+The+Earl+Bathurst%3Cbr%3EOccupier%3A+The+Earl+Bathurst%22%5D%5D&id=64940306 The Genealogist Piece: 26, sub-piece 37, Sub-Image 001 (tithe map), plot No. 885] (£).


== Maps ==
== Maps ==
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* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holbeck,_Nottinghamshire Wikipedia: Holbeck, Nottinghamshire]
* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holbeck,_Nottinghamshire Wikipedia: Holbeck, Nottinghamshire]


{{PnItemAlsoSee}}
{{PlaceNamesItemAlsoSee}}


== Notes ==
== Notes ==
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Latest revision as of 19:38, 25 April 2022

Locality
Coordinate 53.239236, -1.192017
Adm. div. Nottinghamshire
Vicinity In Holbeck; c. 25 m NE of Blue Barn Farm and c. 20 m E of Blue Barn Lodge
Type Natural feature
Interest Robin Hood name
Status Defunct
First Record 1839
A.k.a. Robins Greave; Gorse Covert; Gorse Copse
Loading map...
Robin's Greave aka Robin Hood's Grave.
Loading map...
Top: Two suggested locations for Robin Hood's Grave; that of Dobson & Taylor to the left; that of the Historical Gazetteer of England's Place-Names to the right. Below: the actual location of Robin's Greave aka Robin Hood's Grave.
Looking towards Robin's Greave aka Robin Hoods' Grave / Google Earth Street View.

By Henrik Thiil Nielsen, 2016-10-07. Revised by Henrik Thiil Nielsen, 2022-04-25.

Robin Hood's Grave, a locality near Holbeck (Nottinghamshire), whose nature and precise location have long been minor mysteries, is in fact a gorse copse c. 25 meters northeast of Blue Barn Farm and c. 20 meters east of Blue Barn Lodge, approximately at the centre of a triangle formed by Holbeck, Cuckney and Langwith.

Gover, Mawer and Stenton in the English Place-Name Society's volume on Nottinghamshire list this place-name under Holbeck parish, referring to a c. 1840 tithe award and an unspecified and undated 6" O.S. map.[1] They cite the name given in the tithe award as 'Robins Grave', that in the 6" O.S. map as 'Robin Hood's Grave'. According to Dobson & Taylor, Robin Hood's Grave was '[a]pparently a cave'.[2] It is not clear why they thought so, but as Nottinghamshire is a county with many caves, perhaps this was a mere guess. Frank E. Earp, the author of a recent book on Nottinghamshire lore, states categorically that 'this site is in fact a cave' and it 'does not feature on any other map of the county' than the tithe map.[3] He cites no source, but he seems to have nearly all his basic information on Robin Hood place-names from Dobson & Taylor. I have not been able to locate the map referred to by Gover, Mawer and Stenton among the myriad maps online at the National Library of Scotland's website, but not all O.S. maps are (yet) online there.

Dobson & Taylor tentatively suggest a location 'near Sheet 112 SK:540730?', which translates to a square, 100 by 100 m, whose SW corner is at 53.251274,-1.192124.[4] This is indicated top left on one of the interactive maps below, while the pointer top right on the same map indicates an alternative location suggested at the Historical Gazetteer of England's Place-Names.[5] At neither location is there any suggestion of the presence of a cave. The Notts Guided Walking Programme for 2010 offered a walk "to Holbeck, back via Greaves Wood to look for Robin Hood's grave. The Nottinghamshire place-name book says 'It's somewhere here'!".[6] Evidently people with local knowledge no longer know where or what the grave is.

The unspecified tithe award of c. 1840 cited by the three place-name researchers turns out to be for Cuckney, carrying the dates 1839 and 1841 and also covering Holbeck and Bonbusk. The place-name listed there is 'Robins Greave',[7] not grave. The writing is quite clear. At the location indicated on the tithe map, the O.S. maps listed below have a "Gorse Covert" or "Gorse Copse", which can also be seen at the position indicated near the bottom of the Google satellite map below. Thus Robin became Robin Hood and the greave, i.e. thicket or copse, became a grave.[8]

Gazetteers

Printed and web sources

MS sources

Maps

Background

Also see


Notes