Robin Hood's Butt (Furze Hill): Difference between revisions

Locality
Coordinate	50.894946, -1.757353
Adm. div.	Hampshire
Vicinity	Ibsley Common, New Forest; near Furze Hill; c. 1 km SE of North Gorley; c. 1 km NE of South Gorley
Type	Natural feature
Interest	Robin Hood name
Status	Extant
First Record	1872
A.k.a.	Robin Hood's Clump

Latest revision as of 16:43, 8 May 2022

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Robin Hood's Butt (Furze Hill).

Robin Hood's Butt or Clump / Mike Faherty, 1 Apr. 2012; Creative Commons, via Geograph.

By Henrik Thiil Nielsen, 2022-05-05. Revised by Henrik Thiil Nielsen, 2022-05-08.

A widely visible New Forest landmark and arguably the most prominent archaeological feature on Ibsley Common, Robin Hood's Butt or Clump on a ridge overlooking Chibden and Brogenslade Bottoms is a distinctive clump of 18 pine trees crowning a supposed Bronze Age disc barrow. The name 'Robin Hood's Butt' first appears on a 6" O.S. map of the area published in 1872. Robin Hood's Butt is a scheduled monument.

The fairly small Scots pines currently making up the clump are said to have been planted in 1931 to replace previous trees destroyed by fire. The trees grow within a circular embankment whose interior is raised c. 40 cm above an outside ditch probably dug to provide materials for the earthwork. The diameter of the circular embankment is just over 10 metres and that of the ditch 15 metres. Although the earthwork is similar in form to others that are simply planting rings, according to English Heritage, Robin Hood's Butt incorporates as its base the remnants of a Bronze Age burial mound. Expert opinion is divided over this. A fact which speaks in favour of the barrow hypothesis is that the element 'butt' often occurs in the names of such monuments in the New Forest area. On the other hand it is difficult ot explain the absence of any indication of this feature from the earliest 1" O.S. map of the area which does, on the other hand, include many others on Ibsley Common which are less obvious and prominent. As clumps of trees have been planted on ancient earthworks elsewhere, it seems most likely that this was also the case with Robin Hood's Butt.^[1]

According to the 1910 allusion cited below, the tree circle at Robin Hood's Butt and others at Whitefield and Dorridge were planted by Welbore Ellis Agar (1778–1868), the second Lord Normanton,^[2] the last two in 1835, the first in 1840. According to a 1951 MS discussing this neighbourhood, it is still remembered locally 'how the Dowager Lady Normanton of Victorian times used to drive over from Somerley in her coach and pair, in the afternoons, to a view point on Furzehill where she had planted a ring of trees beneath which she sat to admire the views and distant prospect of Somerley House'.^[1] If, as is almost certainly the case, this refers to Robin Hood's Butt, there is clearly a conflict with the account from 1910 as to who had the tree circle planted. In the absence of arguments to the contrary, we must tentatively accept the earlier account.

The National Trust's account of this locality,^[1] IRHB's chief source for the above, notes that the 1872 O.S. map has Robin Hood's Butt somewhat west of its true position. If the interactive map on this page is zoomed in sufficiently closely, it can be seen to have Robin Hood's Butt at what is apparently the same location as the O.S. map. While there is no evidence to suggest that the question should be answered affirmatively, it seems reasonable to ask if the name Robin Hood's Butt (or Clump) could originally have referred to some now lost feature at this more westerly location? For a Robin Hood name mistakenly transferred by modern archaeologists to a nearby feature, see Robin Hood Ball (Netheravon).

Allusions

1910 - Sumner, Heywood - Book of Gorley

The three clumps of Scots fir & Weymouth pine – Whitefield[,] Robin Hood's, & Dorridge – were planted by the 2^nd Lord Normanton to give landmarks & variety to his view of the long line of the New Forest Hills from Somerley – so the story is told – Whitefield & Dorridge were planted about 1835 – Robin Hood's about 1850 – Dorridge is the highest ground on the common – 257 feet above the sea level – while the lowest part is at the caltle [sic, for 'cattle'] stop, where the Huckles brook leaves the common – 100 feet above the sea level.^[3]

Gazetteers

Not included in Dobson, R. B., ed.; Taylor, J., ed. Rymes of Robyn Hood: an Introduction to the English Outlaw (London, 1976), pp. 293-311.

Sources

National Trust: Heritage Records: Robin Hood's Clump, Ibsley Common, Ibsley and Rockford Commons
- Heritage Gateway: National Trust HBSMR 123290: Robin Hood's Clump, Ibsley Common, Ibsley and Rockford Commons; same text as the preceding item.

Maps

25" O.S. map Hampshire and Isle of Wight LXII.12 (c. 1875; surveyed 1870). No copy in NLS
25" O.S. map Hampshire and Isle of Wight LXII.12 (1897; rev. 1895) (georeferenced)
25" O.S. map Hampshire and Isle of Wight LXII.12 (1897; rev. 1895)
25" O.S. map Hampshire and Isle of Wight LXII.12 (1909; rev. 1907)
25" O.S. map Hampshire and Isle of Wight LXII.12 (1946; rev. 1940)
6" O.S. map Hampshire & Isle of Wight LXII (1872; surveyed 1870–71)
6" O.S. map Hampshire & Isle of Wight LXII.SE (1898; rev. 1895) (georeferenced)
6" O.S. map Hampshire & Isle of Wight LXII.SE (1898; rev. 1895)
6" O.S. map Hampshire & Isle of Wight LXII.SE (1910; rev. 1907).

Discussion

AtWaG – (All the World's a Garden): Clump or Butt?

Background

Also see

Notes

Image gallery

Click any image to display it in the lightbox, where you can navigate between images by clicking in the right or left side of the current image.

Robin Hood's Butt or Clump / Mike Faherty, 1 Apr. 2012; Creative Commons, via Geograph.
Approaching Robin Hood's Clump, Ibsley Common, New Forest / Jim Champion, 10 June 2006; Creative Commons, via Geograph.
The view from Robin Hood's Butt, New Forest / Jim Champion, 10 June 2006; Creative Commons, via Geograph.

Hampshire place-names

Place-names

[heritagerecords-1] 1.0 ^1.1 ^1.2 National Trust: Heritage Records: Robin Hood's Clump, Ibsley Common, Ibsley and Rockford Commons

[2] Wikipedia: Earl of Normanton.

[3] Sumner, Heywood; Coatts, Margot, introd.; Evans, L. J. C., introd. Cuckoo Hill: the Book of Gorley (London and Melbourne, 1987), p. 25.

[1]

[2]

[3]

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 __NOTOC__{{PlaceNamesItemTop|Lat=50.894946|Lon=-1.757353|AdministrativeDivision=Hampshire|Vicinity=Ibsley Common, New Forest; near Furze Hill; ''c.'' 1 km SE of North Gorley; ''c.'' 1 km NE of South Gorley|Type=Natural feature|Interest=Robin Hood name|
-Status=Extant|Demonym=|Riding=|GreaterLondon=|Year=1872|Aka=|Century=|Cluster1=|Cluster2=|Cluster3=|Image=geograph-2877971-by-Mike-Faherty.jpg|Postcards=|ExtraCat1=Places named Robin Hood's Butts|ExtraCat2=|ExtraCat3=|ExtraCat4=|ExtraCat5=|ExtraLink1=|ExtraLink2=|ExtraLink3=|ExtraLink4=|ExtraLink5=|ExtraLinkName1=|ExtraLinkName2=|ExtraLinkName3=|ExtraLinkName4=|ExtraLinkName5=|GeopointPrefix=|GeopointSuffix=|VicinitySuffix=|StatusSuffix=|DatePrefix=|DateSuffix=}}
+Status=Extant|Demonym=|Riding=|GreaterLondon=|Year=1872|Aka=Robin Hood's Clump|Century=|Cluster1=|Cluster2=|Cluster3=|Image=geograph-2877971-by-Mike-Faherty.jpg|Postcards=|ExtraCat1=Places named Robin Hood's Butts|ExtraCat2=|ExtraCat3=|ExtraCat4=|ExtraCat5=|ExtraLink1=Robin Hood Ball (Netheravon)|ExtraLink2=|ExtraLink3=|ExtraLink4=|ExtraLink5=|ExtraLinkName1=|ExtraLinkName2=|ExtraLinkName3=|ExtraLinkName4=|ExtraLinkName5=|GeopointPrefix=|GeopointSuffix=|VicinitySuffix=|StatusSuffix=|DatePrefix=|DateSuffix=}}
 {{#display_map:{{#var:Coords}}~{{#replace:{{PAGENAME}}|&#39;|'}}|width=34%|fullscreen=yes}}<div class="pnMapLegend">{{PAGENAME}}.</div>
 [[File:{{#var:Image}}|thumb|right|500px|Robin Hood's Butt or Clump / [https://m.geograph.org.uk/photo/2877971 Mike Faherty, 1 Apr. 2012; Creative Commons, via Geograph.]]]
 <div class="no-img"><p id="byline">By Henrik Thiil Nielsen, 2022-05-05. Revised by {{#realname:{{REVISIONUSER}}}}, {{REVISIONYEAR}}-{{REVISIONMONTH}}-{{REVISIONDAY2}}.</p>
-Text to follow.
+A widely visible New Forest landmark and arguably the most prominent archaeological feature on Ibsley Common, Robin Hood's Butt or Clump on a ridge overlooking Chibden and Brogenslade Bottoms is a distinctive clump of 18 pine trees crowning a supposed Bronze Age disc barrow. The name 'Robin Hood's Butt' first appears on a 6" O.S. map of the area published in 1872. Robin Hood's Butt is a scheduled monument.
-<!-- Mike Faherty photo: Ibsley Common, clump of trees. On the ridge overlooking Chibden and Brogenslade Bottoms; distinctive enough to be a landmark. -->
+The fairly small Scots pines currently making up the clump are said to have been planted in 1931 to replace previous trees destroyed by fire. The trees grow within a circular embankment whose interior is raised ''c.'' 40 cm above an outside ditch probably dug to provide materials for the earthwork. The diameter of the circular embankment is just over 10 metres and that of the ditch 15 metres. Although the earthwork is similar in form to others that are simply planting rings, according to English Heritage, Robin Hood's Butt incorporates as its base the remnants of a Bronze Age burial mound. Expert opinion is divided over this. A fact which speaks in favour of the barrow hypothesis is that the element 'butt' often occurs in the names of such monuments in the New Forest area. On the other hand it is difficult ot explain the absence of any indication of this feature from the earliest 1" O.S. map of the area which does, on the other hand, include many others on Ibsley Common which are less obvious and prominent. As clumps of trees have been planted on ancient earthworks elsewhere, it seems most likely that this was also the case with Robin Hood's Butt.<ref name="heritagerecords">[https://heritagerecords.nationaltrust.org.uk/HBSMR/MonRecord.aspx?uid=MNA180627 National Trust: Heritage Records: Robin Hood's Clump, Ibsley Common, Ibsley and Rockford Commons]</ref>
-<!-- Jim Champion photo: This footpath approaches Robin Hood's Clump from South Gorley along a spur of the Ibsley Common plateau. The pine trees in the clump were planted by Lord Normanton in 1931 to replace the previous trees that were destroyed by a heath fire. Beneath the trees is a Bronze Age disc barrow. -->
-<!--
+According to the 1910 allusion cited below, the tree circle at Robin Hood's Butt and others at Whitefield and Dorridge were planted by Welbore Ellis Agar (1778–1868), the second Lord Normanton,<ref>[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Normanton Wikipedia: Earl of Normanton.]</ref> the last two in 1835, the first in 1840. According to a 1951 MS discussing this neighbourhood, it is still remembered locally 'how the Dowager Lady Normanton of Victorian times used to drive over from Somerley in her coach and pair, in the afternoons, to a view point on Furzehill where she had planted a ring of trees beneath which she sat to admire the views and distant prospect of Somerley House'.<ref name="heritagerecords"/> If, as is almost certainly the case, this refers to Robin Hood's Butt, there is clearly a conflict with the account from 1910 as to who had the tree circle planted. In the absence of arguments to the contrary, we must tentatively accept the earlier account.
-If you have any comments or new information about this record, please email us.
+The National Trust's account of this locality,<ref name="heritagerecords"/> IRHB's chief source for the above, notes that the 1872 O.S. map has Robin Hood's Butt somewhat west of its true position. If the interactive map on this page is zoomed in sufficiently closely, it can be seen to have Robin Hood's Butt at what is apparently the same location as the O.S. map. While there is no evidence to suggest that the question should be answered affirmatively, it seems reasonable to ask if the name Robin Hood's Butt (or Clump) could originally have referred to some now lost feature at this more westerly location? For a Robin Hood name mistakenly transferred by modern archaeologists to a nearby feature, see [[Robin Hood Ball (Netheravon)]].
-NT HBSMR Number:	123290
-Type of Record:	Landscape
-Name:	Robin Hood's Clump, Ibsley Common, Ibsley and Rockford Commons
-Summary
-Robin Hood's Clump, Ibsley Common, New Forest (HFCAS Section Site no. SU11SE39) NF10177
-Grid Reference:	SU 171 106
-Civil Parish:	Ellingham; Harbridge and Ibsley; New Forest; Hampshire
-County:	Hampshire
-NT Property:	Ibsley and Rockford Commons; London and South East
-Map:	All our Monument records are mapped in NT Heritage Records Online.
-Protected Status
-Scheduled Monument 1019305: ROUND BARROW CEMETERY ON IBSLEY COMMON, 800M SOUTH EAST OF BLUNTS BARN COTTAGE
-Other References/Statuses
-Common Land: Ibsley Common
-National Park: New Forest
-Monument Types
-CIRCULAR ENCLOSURE (Prehistoric - 500000 BC to 42 AD)
-Full description
-Robin Hood's Clump is a landmark feature visible for miles around. It comprises a group of eighteen fairly small Scots pine (said to have been replanted in 1931 and much smaller than the overstorey in Whitefield Clump) in a prominent hilltop position. They are planted within a circular embanked enclosure, with the interior slightly raised above the surroundings, and with an external ditch which presumably provided the material for raising the interior in addition to the bank construction. The diameter (top of bank to top of bank) is 10.3 metres and the overall diameter including the ditch is 15 metres. The top of the bank is about 0.4 metres above the bottom of the ditch. It is thus very similar in form (if not in size) to the hilltop planting rings at Paddy Bussey's Firs (Map 14) on Rockford Common and the ring earthwork at Dorridge (Map 12). It is also comparable to the three planting rings on Pleasure House Hill in Newlands (Map 1), although far more consolidated, perhaps because of its exposed position open to stock and heavily trampled by walkers. Unfortunately, this straightforward identification of a planting ring is challenged by English Heritage who have determined that it is in fact a barrow and who have scheduled it under the number SM31178/02. They further comment on it as follows:
-"The disc barrow, 19.5m in total diameter (conflicts with our measurement) is of relatively unusual form, comprising a disc shaped platform, raised 0.15m, surrounded by a low raised rim, and a shallow outer ditch. It is very prominently located at the intersection of two spurs at the western edge of the gravel plateau".
-Since this is probably the most prominent archaeological feature on Ibsley Common, it is worth considering in more detail the two possible interpretations of the earthwork. Against this being a barrow is one important piece of negative evidence. The first edition of the Ordance Survey One Ince map shows many of the more obvious barrows on Ibsley Common by the standard cicular symbol. It shows the "cockpit" barrow (Site SU11SE40) which is only 150 metres away and much less obvious than Robin Hood's Clump. If the latter existed as an earthwork (supposed barrow) in 1808, why was it omitted? We have been unable to arrive at any precise dating of the ornamental clump planting on Ibsley Common, but Sumner's record in the "Book of Gorley"(2) is as follows:
-"The three clumps of Scots pine and Weymouth pine (sic) - Whitefield, Robin Hood's and Dorridge - were planted by the second Lord Normanton to give landmarks and variety to his view from Somerley of the long line of the New Forest hills, so the story is told. Whitefield and Dorridge were planted about the year 1835, Robin Hood's about the year 1850".
-The Dorridge Clump referred to here had been planted by 1840. It is almost certainly the enclosure on Dorridge Hill now occupied by the bungalow of that name and not the "ring" further north east. Whitefield is on an altogether larger scale. The Ibsley tithe map of 1841 shows neither Whitefield nor Robin Hood's clumps but both appear on the OS 6" map of 1872(3).
-A typescript in the New Forest Museum at Lyndhurst, "Notes on Hyde and Frogham" by M. Cowie (1951) contains the following: "It is still remembered how the Dowager Lady Normanton of Victorian times used to drive over from Somerley in her coach and pair, in the afternoons, to a view point on Furzehill where she had planted a ring of trees beneath which she sat to admire the views and distant prospect of Somerley House." This could hardly be any other site than Robin Hood's Clump which might reasonably be described as "on Furzehill".
-In support of the barrow theory, it should be noted that the place name "Robin Hood's Butt" appears on the Ordance Survey map (misplaced [presumably] to the west). "Butt" placenames in the New Forest are often attached to barrows, e.g. "The Butt" at Fritham and "The Butts" near Islands Thorns.
-Finally, the possibility that both interpretations of the earthwork might be correct cannot be overlooked. It is possible that the clump was planted on a pre-existing barrow site. Certainly there is some evidence to suggest that this was done at Three Trees Hill on Rockford Common (Site SU10NE35).(1)
-A 12m x 0.5m Bronze Age burial mound. Visible as a low cicrcular platform with a small copse of trees planted on it. (4)
-Sources / Further Reading
----	SNA67960 - Measured Survey: New Forest National Park Authority. New Forest National Park Survey Avon Valley Commons, Ibsley and Rockford, New Forest.
-[1]XY	SNA65740 - Report: Hampshire Field. August 2000. New Forest Commons of The National Trust, An Archaeological and Landscape Assessment, Volume II - The Avon Valley Commons. [Mapped features: #116100 Point Location, ; #159276 A 12m x 0.5m Bronze Age burial mound. Visible as a low cicrcular platform with a small copse of trees planted on it., ]
-[2]	SNA65794 - Document: H. Sumner. 1910. "The Book of Gorley".
-[3]	SAA56 - Map: Ordnance Survey. 1872. Ordnance Survey Map. Uncertain. First.
-Associated Finds: none recorded
-Associated Events: none recorded
-Related records: none recorded
-Images
--->
 {{PlaceNamesItemAllusionsAndRecords}}
 == Gazetteers ==
 * Not included in {{:Dobson, Richard Barrie 1976a}}, pp. 293-311.
 == Sources ==
-* [https://www.heritagegateway.org.uk/Gateway/Results_Single.aspx?uid=MNA180627&resourceID=6  Heritage Gateway: National Trust HBSMR 123290: Robin Hood's Clump, Ibsley Common, Ibsley and Rockford Commons]
+* [https://heritagerecords.nationaltrust.org.uk/HBSMR/MonRecord.aspx?uid=MNA180627 National Trust: Heritage Records: Robin Hood's Clump, Ibsley Common, Ibsley and Rockford Commons]
-* [https://heritagerecords.nationaltrust.org.uk/HBSMR/MonRecord.aspx?uid=MNA180627 National Trust: Heritage Records: Robin Hood's Clump, Ibsley Common, Ibsley and Rockford Commons.]
+** [https://www.heritagegateway.org.uk/Gateway/Results_Single.aspx?uid=MNA180627&resourceID=6  Heritage Gateway: National Trust HBSMR 123290: Robin Hood's Clump, Ibsley Common, Ibsley and Rockford Commons]; same text as the preceding item.
 == Maps ==
-* 25" map ''Hampshire and Isle of Wight'' LXII.12 (''c.'' 1875; surveyed 1870). No copy in NLS
+* 25" O.S. map ''Hampshire and Isle of Wight'' LXII.12 (''c.'' 1875; surveyed 1870). No copy in NLS
 * [https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=50.89585&lon=-1.76117&layers=168&b=5 25" O.S. map ''Hampshire and Isle of Wight'' LXII.12 (1897; rev. 1895)] (georeferenced)
 * [https://maps.nls.uk/view/105986950#zoom=4&lat=2260&lon=10435&layers=BT 25" O.S. map ''Hampshire'' and Isle of Wight LXII.12 (1897; rev. 1895)]
@@ Line 82: / Line 28: @@
 * [https://maps.nls.uk/view/101441289#zoom=5&lat=3654&lon=6724&layers=BT 6" O.S. map ''Hampshire'' & Isle of Wight LXII.SE (1910; rev. 1907).]
-<!--== Discussion ==
+== Discussion ==
-*  -->
+* [https://richardloader.typepad.com/atwag/2007/03/clump_or_butt.html AtWaG – (All the World's a Garden): Clump or Butt?]
-<!--== Background ==
+== Background ==
-*  -->
+* [https://www.heritagegateway.org.uk/Gateway/Results_Single.aspx?uid=217382&sort=4&search=all&criteria=new%20ditch&rational=q&recordsperpage=10&p=18&move=p&nor=399&recfc=0&resourceID=19191 Heritage Gateway: Historic England Research Records: Monument Number 217382]
+* [https://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=14040 The Megalithic Portal: Ibsley Common barrows – Barrow Cemetery in England in Hampshire]
+* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Normanton Wikipedia: Earl of Normanton.]
 <!--== Brief mention ==
 *  -->
 {{PlaceNamesItemAlsoSee}}
 == Notes ==
 <references/>